7 Reasons Creative People Don’t Talk about Money

View Comments (156)

• This is AMAZING and absolutely describes my experience. I've "done" each of the 7, and i suspect my clients (multi-taltented creative types) will resonate with the love/hate money relationship, especially those who are actively trying to make a living using their creative talents in an entrepreneurial way. Oddly, I didn't have these worries as much when i was employed by an ad agency -- but I guess that would be because a. It was Official that my talents were worth it and b. I wasn't the only one "selling out"

  Thanks for a thought provoking article. I may have to write about it on my blog -- with attribution of course, and a link back here.

  Lisa

• This is pretty much why all "creative people" ala artists need management. Rich people don't get rich by paying their bills on time. In fact, I remember a writer I know who was still owed from a National Magazine for writing over 2 years ago. While he was a fantastic writer, he lacked the skills to chase a debt and feared not being used in the future. Choosing the right Management should really be a talking point.

  If an artist needs to worry about finances and everything related then their art will suffer for it, they could also potentially burn bridges. Where as if they had management chasing work/'bills for them they can disassociate themselves with that part of their business (to an extent) . Like it or not if you want any remuneration from your art then you are a business and therefore need to run yourself and your affairs like a business.

  Steve
  Bigspin Artist Management

• I think your 5 reasons are a bunch of bull! Anyone with even a bit of commonsense would never make such mistakes. And I don't like U categorizing creative people as being lousy business people, too! How dare you?! Any business person in any type of business, making your ill-commonsense mistakes would suffer - whether they're a creative person or not!

  If a creative freelancer just keeps their studio's business practices simple and direct they'd avoid every single problem you illustrated. And as far as 'crappy clients' is concerned, artists (creatives0 only have to do 2 things to avoid problems. 1st they need to create (maybe w/ the help of a lawyer, if necessary) - a standard "Iron Clad" fair work contract for the type of creating they do....and not do any work until a client signs it. And have a generalized sheet included into the contract that has the specific procedural aspects / specific terms of the project that the client is hiring the artist (creative) to do. The client discusses it with the [creative] person and signs it along with the creative, if both parties are in agreement. The 2nd thing a [creative] person needs to do, is set up they're standard work procedure(s)...and again place those in writing for themselves and or also to be able to provide potential clients w/ a copy of them, if need...and then stick to that laid out procedure! I work on a either an up-front-pre-paid terms, (for new clients that I'm doing a 1st time project for); after which if the project goes well, those terms then change into an only half of the owed money up-front....legitimate clients have never had a problem with this; only the deadbeats, loser clients have ever complained; and those I then tell simply that, this is the way I work - especially with new clients and if they can't see working with me under these terms, then we can't work together. Period! I've avoided all sorts of deadbeat clients this way. It's simple and it works! If a client reneges on the other half of the owed monies I either sue them; and or inform them that I'll never work with them again - placing them and or their company too, into my "non-workable clients file". I also inform said client that I'll be keeping the created artwork and all rights to it; for possible resale & use by whatever client and that their (as laid out in the work contract), that I'll be keeping their deposit money for the work that I completed before they breached the contract. Simple, it works, and I think its SMART, and is according to your 5 mistakes statement not at all becoming of a creative person - cause if I'm creative, according to U, I must be business stupid - like all creative people(s) - right?!

  This whole article of yours is just to get creative people to sign up for your seminar(s) isn't that the actual bottom line here?

  • Just because something is easy for you, it doesn't mean it's common sense to others.

    If you bothered to read the other comments, you'd see there are plenty of people who relate to these issues. So please don't insult my readers by saying "Anyone with even a bit of commonsense" would know how to avoid them.

    You may know plenty about business, and good for you if so. But to judge from your writing you don't know much about explaining it to others. And yet this skill is 'common sense' to some people.

    Also, I'd find it easier to take you seriously if you owned up and put your name to your comment.

• @wolvercat---whoa, that certainly is an aggressive post. Interestingly, I understand a similar message from you both, that clarity helps everyone involved. And I think that here creatives don't differ greatly from other small business owners....we're really concerned with our work/product, and the business end can be a challenge.

• i have worked three years AGAIN full-time painting, selling my oirginals, commissions, selling prints wholesale, developing new avenues. it is impossible for me to do both the creations and the marketeering. i need a sales rep!! the business takes so much time!!! and i need the time to be painting. I also have learned to take a partial-payment up front. the one time i did not recently the folks, renigged on the deal, but they also lost their restaurant business. just desserts. planned for a nice sports bar with planned paintings, actually went with sports posters on the wall. maybe their food went down too. i am going back to teaching art, so i can finance my next phase. i do not want to take out a business loan. I also sell other artists' work, as an artist in res. at a healthplex. i have had to be diverse in ways to make money so i can keep on making art. i am single, thus no second income coming in. but i am learning! just keeping up paperwork for taxes is daunting.

• too add to my previous posts. i went out and got over 20 stores in short time to purchase prints, cards, bags and/or T shirts from my original art. then i never can get the get-with-it to keep on contacting for re-orders. in fact, i have developed an aversion to doing all that. i need a sales rep that is already going to stores, give a percentage of the sales. i have learned that much. there are lots of pages to my website, i know i need another kind with the little shopping carts, now anyone has to call or email me. and i need to get a site on facebook. but i am getting off this computer to paint!

• Sorry I didn't sign my name to my post, Mark; so as U said in your email to me 'that you could take me seriously'. My name is Wolvercat. Apparently U failed to look at the top of my post where it clearly says in its tile: "Wolvercat says". But U did make my point by not noticing that. Being a freelancer for many years, I do have a great deal of business knowledge; U were correct in stating the obvious, and if other people as u pointed out don't have the same simple commonsense knowledge then maybe their not ready too freelance!

  Anyone, ANYONE, can easily set up a freelance studio! And if they can't do their own quarterly tax preparations or accounting, it easy (especially for those on a limited budget to do so). You call up a full service accounting firm to handle it; or for short-of-cash money freelancers - they just go to the closest business college and contact either an either about to grad. top accounting student to handle it, or even one of the accounting Profs. who does that kind of work as an added sideline to their teaching duties, (that's what I did, way back when I 1st started freelancing). The accounting teacher(s) at whatever college could recommend their top student - who would prolly do the artist's accounting for little money, because it would give them something good to put onto their lacking resume & would start them on the road of experience. My point w/ my post was 1, that you were insulting artists (and other creatives) w/ your statements of how inept creatives are when it comes to business. (Only people who haven't bothered to do their homework about freelancing are inept in business).

  2ndly my post was to point out that you, Mark; put up the article too snare creatives into attending your seminar, utilizing your coaching services, and getting people to download your E-book, for I assume educating these lost non-business savvy creatives. Now there's nothing wrong with pulling people to use your services, don't get me wrong, but to do it by insulting the minds of creatives to do it - IS WRONG! And that's what pissed me off! Sorry, but it did.

  I notice you didn't knock down any of the business methods I stated in my earlier post - why not? Maybe because their solid practices?

  I'm tired of online creative people's, so called: 'advice coaches' - always telling us, creatives, that just because were creative artists, etc, that automatically were dumbfounded when it comes to the business side of freelancing.

  The only 'starving artists' out there today (w/ all the contact connectivity of the internet), are the one's that deserve to be starving, because of their lazy-ness to set up their freelance studio correctly.

  And btw, there's no such thing as 'selling out'...that's a myth, an excuse, conjured up and used by creatives that don't have the understanding that their creative endeavors are supposed to lead to financial results. What modern dedicated creative doesn't want to be rewarded for their efforts in money gain, exposure gain, fame, etc? Certainly not professionals! Only hobbyists freelancers would ever not be working for those gains. And I seriously doubt that most hobbyist freelancers would gripe about gaining those results either.

  Creative want-to-be successful people just need to do their research, homework about the way freelancing is done, the way one sets up a freelance studio proper, before they start freelancing. The trouble is young-up-and-coming creatives keep putting the cart-before-the-horse and that's why they get into trouble! If they'd just stop use their head's logically, commonsensical, most of them wouldn't need 'coaches'! Any good art college, business college, can provide the necessary education to creatives, who actually want to learn to be freelancers. Or the starting out freelancer should just contact any number of successful freelancers, in their chosen field of creativeness, over the web, (in their own town, is best) and become an apprentice too learn. I have 2 apprentices at the moment, one in town and the other out in Nebraska, (whom I apprentice over the web). It's not hard...

  Instead, of pointing out the obvious mistakes any idiot could avoid with even low commonsense, Mark..maybe you should write some articles actually listing what procedures, etc...that freelancers should do for success; that would help your article/blogger subscribers out a lot more. people, creatives, especially in this economy today, don't need anyone telling us that we need to take money seriously ether, trust me - everyone these days takes it serious!

  I meant no disrespect, to you McGuinness, or to anyone else...u just pissed me off, with your insulting article to us, creatives. Maybe that's not how u intended to come off - but for me and others I sent the article link to - it did insult us.

  Btw, I'm a successful Cartoonist and successful novelist, as well. I work in the comic book industry, and write novels, I also illustrate childrens books. I've been a freelancer for many years, so I know from whence I speak.

  Oh and look, you can now take this post seriously, Mark, for I signed it.

  ~John Wolvercat

  • Hey John,

    Since you're so preoccupied by insults, here's a fascinating fact for you:

    Most bloggers will be more likely to respond to your comments if you DON'T use insulting and aggressive language.

    Amazing but true. ;-)

    For an example of how to disagree while retaining some manners, have a look at Tony Caroselli's comment below.

• You know... I debated whether or not to post this as a comment to this article, and I wasn't going to, because you describe yourself as a "poet and creative coach," and that tells me this is your business, and I don't want to damage anyone's business. But since wolvercat and others are piling on you and making some really rude claims, I figure it might actually be a benefit to respond point by point, but respectfully.

  Before I posted this comment, I posted a link to my Facebook page asking people what they thought I'd have to say about it. Two people - one of whom is my mother - replied, and they both thought I'd agree with it. I don't. In fact, I agree with five words in it and nothing else. We'll get to those five words in a bit.

  But to begin with, the premise is faulty. Maybe the "creative people" you know - or many of them, at any rate, don't talk about money. For me? Most of the creative people I know talk about it incessantly - how they have it, how they don't, how they got screwed on this deal, how they hated taking that one because it didn't pay enough, but hey. Rent's due. And I've known a lot of creative people in my day, mind you. I grew up the son of an art teacher, went to a liberal arts college and now live in North Hollywood, where most of my friends either are or want to be in the film and TV industries in some capacity or another. Plus, I'v worked in publishing, am friends with cartoonists and singers and dancers and the whole spectrum of the arts.

  And it's a premise which is provably inaccurate even to a casual observer. As wolvercat has so rightfully pointed out, there are any number of creative people who are excellent businesspeople. When I was reading your article, Paul McCartney came immediately to mind. It's true John and George were much more squeamish about money, but Paul is undeniably talented and undeniably a businessman. Steven Spielberg wears both hats, as well. I'd sit and think of a list of other examples, but you get my point.

  But to the extent MANY "creative" people feel about money the way John and George do - which is a very broad generalization, but assuming it for now - do your reasons hold water? I'm afraid to say the answer is no. On a point-by-point basis, points 1 and 2 are mutually contradictory. Those who truly do not have money would NEVER call it unimportant, and those who would have it. Even - perhaps especially - if they inherited, none consider money so much a curse as those who never want for it.

  Numbers 3 and 6, again, false assumption. One of the most creative men I know found a highly lucrative day job in marketing, and one of the most creative women is an accountant. I, myself, worked five years in accounting - hated every minute of it, but much of why I hated it was I found it so pathetically simple. Indeed, to say "creative" and good at marketing or good at accounting are mutually exclusive is provably false. TV commercials are created by ad execs, and some of them are quite creative, and if the 20-aughts taught us nothing, it's that some accountants can spin fictional tales to put the Brothers Grimm to shame.

  Numbers 4 and 5, I know some people certainly worry about, but there's a very simple solution to both of them. Don't want to sell out? Don't sell out. Don't want to look greedy? Don't be greedy. It's not hard. You can say no to some offers and still be a good business person. In fact, if you're a truly good business person in any field, you WILL say no to MOST offers. Because the short-term gain doesn't off-set the long-term loss. Again, we're in the midst of a financial crisis caused by people who stood to gain a lot of money really quickly and didn't much care what would happen down the road. I worked in the music industry for two years. Most of my former coworkers are out of a job or in a new career due to the collapse of the industry because the record companies didn't take hold of the MP3 phenomenon when it first began. They made money from 2003 to 2007, yeah. Look how that worked out.

  (Also, on a completely personal note, I find your implication that creative people are overly sensitive to criticism insulting and counter-productive. Not to tell you your business, but if you're a creative coach, I think it behooves you more than any role you will play to knock THAT out of your clients' heads, not to reinforce or excuse it. But that's just me.)

  And 7 is just patently ludicrous. I can't name a single person who doesn't know by the age of 18 what they'd do with money. I'm 34, and I can tell you exactly what I'd do with it: Blow it on strippers, booze and Vegas, and give the rest of it away. My younger brother would buy a house. We know what we'd do with it. What I'd do with it might not be as wise as what my brother would, but I know what it is.

  Now, understand, I'm not putting you down. I completely see what you're doing is a service to many people who DON'T know how to handle money but who want to, and I don't fault anybody for making a living. But c'mon, man. Don't be so disingenuous. Creative people don't know how to market? Please. What do you call this blog post? Marketing 101: Present people with a problem they may not even know they have in their lives ("Why are you so bad with money?"), present answers to your question (seven of them), offer a solution ("Take my seminar and download my book, and if you want to delve deeper, well... I AM a creative coach.") I don't think you're a charlatan, because charlatans are false prophets, and except for the one point I mentioned above, I don't think you're a false prophet. You clearly do know and can help people manage their money better. But you do remind me of that old joke about the man who buys the guaranteed-or-your-money back course, "How to Be a Millionaire in Three Months," gets the book and reads, "Chapter 1: Create a Course Called 'How to Be a Millionaire in Three Months.'"

  As for the one point on which I personally agree for me? It's these five words: "But we also hate it." I DO hate money. Despise it. I consider it every dollar in my bank account or my pocket a link in a slave's chains. There's no love/hate relationship here. I think it's the vilest system ever created by man, and if I could, I'd pile all the money in the world in a big heap and light it on fire, just to see how civilization copes with that. But until the day I can do that, we're all in this galley together, and I ain't trying to stop you from rowing.

  I just wanted to address your post like an adult is all.

  • I suppose this just shows people are different.

    I'm a writer and know a great many writers and other creative people, and, especially amongst writers, money is a real problem because clients very often act surprised if you even want to be paid, and many writers don't know how to deal with this.

    I have my own experiences of this. In one case, I took on an editing job without discussing money - because I don't like to discuss money - and when I finally managed to bring the question up, it turned out the client had no intention of paying me and thought because I'm a writer I'd just do it as some kind of favour. Call me an idiot for not getting that point clarified before starting the task, but there is an actual money issue amongst the creative people that I know.

    • Yeah. Well, don't reply to the Craigslist ads which say "no pay" at the bottom.

      I mean, don't get me wrong: This is why I say what Marc's doing is absolutely not harmful, and is in fact a benefit. It's totally true. Especially with young writers (or artists or what have you), they simply don't know how to save themselves a lot of time and effort, and what he's doing is completely a service.

      But the fact of the matter is unless it's stated up front that what you're doing is a favor, yeah. You get paid to work on this planet. If strangers don't want to pay you, don't work for them. But it's not because you're a sensitive little flower. It's because you haven't learned basic business skills. Which is fine. You're much better off learning it the easy and cheap way (Marc's) than the difficult and expensive way, but you will learn it eventually or find another profession.

      • *Mark

    • Thanks Quentin. Ouch re your client! Yes, as Tony says, we end up learning the easy way or the hard way. :-)

  • Thanks for the thoughtful comment Tony.

    I appreciate you have strong feelings about the issues - and the fact that you made an effort to be respectful in your response.

    You make some excellent points and I agree with a lot of what you say.

    The bit that surprised me is that you seem to have read my title (and article) as meaning that ALL creative people don't talk about money, and that they are ALL bad at managing it, and can never learn to be good at it.

    Whereas what I intended - and the way most people seem to have taken it - was:

    When many (but not all) creative people don't talk about money, these are some of the reasons why (but not every reason applies to every person)

    But I don't think that would have been a very elegant solution. :-)

    So yes, I agree that creative people can be good at financial management, marketing and other business disciplines.

    (I'd even go further than that and say that a lot of business people are very creative at what they do - you can probably imagine I get objections to that point of view as well!)

    Re the 'sensitive to criticism' issue - I have to say it crops up a LOT in coaching sessions, and whenever I teach giving (and receiving) feedback on creative work, it's always an emotive session. But I don't actually think sensitivity is a bad thing (within reason).

    I ain’t trying to stop you from rowing.

    Thanks, more power to your paddle too. :-)

    • Well, to be fair, you say you meant this to apply to many but not all, but the word "many" does not appear in your title nor opening paragraphs. So if I mistook your comments as a broad generalization, I do apologize, but you will hopefully forgive me for reading the article at face value. And again, I think teaching most creative people-slash-artists how to manage the business end is a fantastic service, and a LOT of them need it. So I'm not putting you down.

      As for criticism (or feedback), this is certainly an article of itself, but I've had all too much experience - as an editor, director, teacher, mentor, producer, etc. - with artists who were over-sensitive to ANY kind of feedback, and I think it's the ultimate enemy for artists. I take a very Samuel Goldwyn approach: "Don't pay any attention to the critics. Don't even ignore them." But as for EDITORS? That's a different story. And the trick is always telling the difference between the two. And part of this may be that I started writing and submitting when I was about 14 or 15 years old, and when you can wallpaper your room with rejection letters by your junior year of high school, you get a bit thick-skinned about it.

      Still and all, there are any number of anecdotes about almost any artist you can name who soldiered on in the face of outright rejection OR - conversely but equally important - recognized for themselves or on wise advice what wasn't working and came up with much better ideas. I think a thick skin coupled with an honestly critical eye - putting aside how much effort has been exerted and asking simply, "But does it WORK?" - is the key which separates the great artists from the skilled craftsmen. But again, that's an article unto itself.

      • No worries re 'many', these things are always open to interpretation and maybe I could have been clearer.

        I think a thick skin coupled with an honestly critical eye – putting aside how much effort has been exerted and asking simply, “But does it WORK?” – is the key which separates the great artists from the skilled craftsmen.

        Nail on head. The thick skin has to be grown. When I teach feedback, I always teach the art of receiving it as well as giving it. And yes, that's a topic for another day...

  • Tony? That was a brilliant comment. Also, if you didn't take Critical Thinking in your education years somewhere along the way, I'd be *real* surprised. You brought me back to my own fond time with premises, false assumptions and tsking generalizations. Fun stuff!

    Mark? Thanks for taking up the topic of money here at Lateral Action. As I've often noted to Peter Shallard: "Write about money. It ALWAYS causes a reaction." Thus proving how important it is to talk about it, n'est pas?

    John? *cracks open a beer and kicks up feet* Chill. Relax. It's Friday. Enjoy.

    Cheers!

    • Vraiment! And I'll have to remember to tease Peter about you being the power behind the throne at his place. ;-)

    • I sincerely thank you very much. I like to think my entire educational career - within and without institutions - was a course in critical thinking.

• The relationship between money and creative people is like a negative feedback circle that keeps getting worse. They associate money with negative feelings and mindset - they don't understand it, they don't think it's important, they think its greedy - and this outputs in not wanting to deal with it -> prevents them from taking steps to manage their money -> money decreases -> which negatively feeds back again into the way they think about money. It's no wonder we have this starving artist stigma!

• I didn't realize I had to sugar coat my comments to make my point(s). Nor did I realize I had to agree with the article....to not be branded as rude! I'll keep quite now...so as not to upset the sensitivities here.

  And no one should feel obliged to enact any of the suggestions I posted in my comments; I'll just keep taking assignments away from freelancers who don't have a clue as to how too set up a freelance business...or run one. I'll always find uses for the money. Shrugs.

  Keeping my branded rudeness to myself now, so I don't make y'all cry.