7 Reasons Creative People Don’t Talk about Money

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• I certainly relate to 3, 4, 5 & 6.

  3 is the biggest one for me. Some tell me that I'm not charging enough money, but then I get many people asking "why is it so expensive?" it's half and half I think, so I try to fall somewhere in the middle.

  Re: 6 & 7 I was much better at managing money when I was younger and am trying to get back to that (the "toys" I would like to spend my money on now are a gazillion times more expensive than what I spent my money on back then!)

  In general I say that my artwork pays for more than itself but I am not at a point where I could live off of it, and I'm pretty happy being at that point.

  • Thanks Jenny.

    Some tell me that I’m not charging enough money, but then I get many people asking “why is it so expensive?” it’s half and half I think, so I try to fall somewhere in the middle.

    This is a really common situation - it can feel so hard to come up with an 'objective' way of pricing art. Another response would be to find as many as possible of the first kind of person. ;-)

    • Aren't we all looking for that first type of person? They are the ones who not only purchase art, but enjoy building of those emotions to a positive headspace as Stacey mentions below.

      • Amen to that. :-)

• I have no problem talking about money. Specific numbers, not so much.

  It's embarrassing if you're not making a lot, and obnoxious when someone shoves their earnings in your face.

  And it's all very subjective. How much money do you need to be "rich?" Depends on who you talk to.

  Money is a tool of sorts. It gets things done. It makes groceries and electricity happen. There's plenty of emotion tangled up in it when it comes to selling your work, because as an artist, it is very much part of you.

  Take money seriously? Yes. But understand where the emotion comes from.

  All seven items in your list have a ton of potential emotional baggage lurking in there. Once triggered, those fears or hangups can really have their way with us.

  "Your headspace is your workspace" is a perfect way to sum that up. And practice, as they say...

  • Money is a tool of sorts. It gets things done.

    I like that way of looking at it. Tools are neutral, they need to be handled with skill - and with care!

    There’s plenty of emotion tangled up in it when it comes to selling your work, because as an artist, it is very much part of you.

    Yes, very true, I love this quote from Flaubert on the subject:

    A book is essentially organic, part of ourselves. We tear a length of gut from our bellies and serve it up.

    No wonder it feels scary to name a price! :-)

    • Precisely. You can learn a new tool or technique, so you can learn how to deal with money.

      The other side of that gut-wrenching fence, of course, is the sheer delight in the buyer's eyes when they're *happy* to pay for your work.

      • Indeed. Let's not forget that bit. :-)

        • This is a really interesting post and this thread here is great, Mark and Stacey. I love Stacey's point about the emotional baggage that comes with money. Creatives want to have money, because, well, it's useful. But it can really pollute the creative output if money is the focus, too.

          On that note, I'm interested to hear further what y'all think about #3, "We Don't Know What We're Worth." That one hits home for me very much. I'm a fiction writer, and the money issues within literary fiction are difficult (advances against royalties, agent commissions, etc.); and I know a novelist who calculated the hours it took to write the book and the total amount of income she got from it, and her pay equaled ten cents an hour.

          But now, writers are pricing their books at 99 cents on Amazon Kindle, and they're selling more just because people are willing to take a chance on a book for a buck. So, they're devaluing their work on an individual level, sort of, but then they're selling books at a higher volume. (I'm thinking of John Locke here; see: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-13854987)

          Not all writers who do that sell a million copies, but it's an interesting development in this dilemma of creatives and money. Love to hear both of your takes on that.

        • Good to see you Baker.

          I'm tempted to say if you think there's not much money in fiction, you should try writing poetry. But I won't. ;-)

          It's pretty hard to strike it rich with a traditional publisher. Most of the business book authors make their money from consulting/speaking etc.

          As for fiction, I can see the attraction in trying to find readers on Kindle with lower prices. Amazon take a cut, but probably not as much as a conventional publisher would, so they'll have better margins.

          But if they want to make real money they'll have to either sell a lot of them, or raise your prices later. And to do either successfully, they'd need to do some creative marketing as well as creative writing.

          When a lot of people are excited to hear about the next book, it makes it a lot easier to name a higher price. :-)

        • Ha! My old fiction professors said they envied poets because poets never had the delusion that they'd make any money from their writing. :)

          I agree with what you say, Mark. Great insights, and thanks for the links to those articles.

          There's a balance of valuing the work, and I think good creatives who are good entrepreneurs aren't always working to find the right price point. In the article, John Locke mentions that he started out higher priced, but his books took off at 99 cents, and he plans on keeping them there. (Amazon gets 70% commission at that price.) Locke DID write a book about how he achieved those sales, which is priced higher, $4.99, a price point where HE gets 70% commission. No accident, that.

          Thanks again! Great discussion, great comments, everybody.

        • Your professor was right! It's actually very liberating to know I'll always be writing poetry it for the pleasure of doing it. Keeps things simpler.

          Sounds like John Locke has a good strategy worked out. There's a world of difference between pricing low strategically to break into a new market and doing it out of fear or a lack of confidence.

          And agreed, it's a great discussion, hats off to everyone who has shared their opinions and experiences. :-)

        • I think you're right that the devaluing is only 'sort of' because it's arguable that the work was equally if not more devalued under the old system where a writer would end up earning 10 cents an hour.
          I think what we're seeing here is the beginning of a new value system where 'reach' is more important than price per unit. In fact, as we've begun to see, even free has a potential value as part of an overall sales strategy. According to what I'm hearing also, multiple products by the same author also have an impact on dales volume of individual items. It's a whole new way of looking at things. Plus it seems ridiculous to try and maintain a price model that encompassed large material & distribution cost - and lots of middle-men - when the new product doesn't involve those overheads.

        • "even free has a potential value as part of an overall sales strategy" - Oh yes, and sometimes it can be a hard sell. ;-)

          And yes, your business model is critical to your pricing. The same price can be a very smart move or a disaster depending on the biz model...

  • I think number 3 is a hard one for me.

    • You're not alone there!

      Have a look at my responses to Nadja and Marta for some tips on pricing in specific situations. Also at Baker's comments about Kindle ebook pricing to see how your overall business strategy can affect your pricing.

• Hey Mark,

  Spot on reasoning here. I can relate to 1,3,4, and 6.

  Money stress has been a problem for me in the past, and continues to flicker away in the back of my head like a faulty light-bulb.

  I have no desire to make a lot of money, so I generally just make enough to get by, and pour myself into my work. I'm building a portfolio of work to launch a career in the next few years, so once I have enough to pay the bills in the meantime, I'm fine with that.

  I will get to that light-bulb at some stage. :)

  Conor

  • Just make sure you get a nice bright one. ;-)

• I don't think it's only creative people who have these ambivalences -- in fact, they are widespread. I was like this myself years ago but have also done a lot of coaching with women, in particular, who worked in fields that wouldn't be considered creative at all who would completely fit with this list and would have similar resistances to 'jumping at' opportunities to make money. Often the reasons for this are buried deep and connected to self-esteem. The best approach, I find, is to apply the creative process - the same stages and steps and attitudes - to the making of money as we would to any other thing we wanted to create. After all, the same process that makes one thing makes everything. Once you give yourself permission to do that, everything changes.

  • Yes, creatives aren't the only ones who struggle with this stuff. (Although it can feel like it at times!)

    I love this:

    The best approach, I find, is to apply the creative process – the same stages and steps and attitudes – to the making of money as we would to any other thing we wanted to create. After all, the same process that makes one thing makes everything.

• I mostly relate to 1, 3 and 4.

  It's impossible for me to fathom someone paying a crazy amount of money for a painting of mine, or a dress I have made by hand. If I were to charge for my time, even at £5/hr, most people would not be able to afford it. And even if they could, it's something I made... I can see its flaws... it is very imperfect... and I have a very very difficult time selling it for what it's worth to _them_.

  I look down on Picasso, because I feel he painted whatever would sell. I may be wrong. The concept, however, still repulses me.

  And, ultimately, I seldom charge (enough or at all) for websites I build. Why? Because to me it's very very easy and actually fun.

  I know I'm not being smart. What I don't know is how to stop being self-deprecating and learn how to price my work.

  • Thanks Sophie.

    If I were to charge for my time, even at £5/hr, most people would not be able to afford it.

    I'd seriously suggest you don't charge for art by the hour! And 'most people' don't buy art (although a lot of them like to look at it). So instead of pricing it for 'most people', how about pricing it for the ones who like spending money on art, and can afford to do so?

    And, ultimately, I seldom charge (enough or at all) for websites I build. Why? Because to me it’s very very easy and actually fun.

    This is VERY common among artists. Because we love what we do, it feels like its own reward. But that doesn't mean it isn't valuable enough for clients to pay us well!

    What I don’t know is how to stop being self-deprecating and learn how to price my work.

    Watch this space... ;-)

  • I thought I'd respond to this one as I was sitting down with an artist just last night and working out prices for a portfolio of work. Just as background there is a mixture of 2 and 3d work in the portfolio and it overlaps between fine art, fashion and craft. I've introduced him to a pop-up boutique that's getting a lot of press recently and would be the right sort of place so before he shows her the work we need to edit the portfolio and know what prices he would be happy with. He's also pretty experienced as opposed to just starting out but it's been a few years since he's shown anyone the work so he's not as well known as he might be. As he's also in paid employment this is not his main income at the moment so he's looking for the 'right' opportunity to some extent.

    Here's the approach we took:
    - first we went through the whole body of work, agreed which the key pieces were and which were either just fun or giving context to the main event
    - we then asked what price would be at which he'd be happy to sell it vs. a price he'd regret selling it for.
    - we also discussed what the cost of production was ... not the number of hours but the money spent on making each piece (some had gems in and were very expensive to make)
    - once we'd done this we could work out the prices of the key pieces first and then everything else was priced in relation to these
    - we also agreed what the absolute minimum was for the smallest/least important pieces and balanced this against having some 'affordable' things as well as some 'aspirational' things.
    - the artist recognised that the most expensive pieces might not sell but it was important that they were present as the smaller things needed contextualising

    So ... it took about 3 hours all in all to work out prices on about 25 pieces of work. We'll probably re-assess the pricing in the light of what sells and what doesn't in a few months time.

    You can see from this summary that it was as much an art as a science (though it is DEFINITELY both), that we mixed emotional judgements with market judgements and business judgements

• All of the above reasons. I've known about them for a long time, dealt with them, done therapy--still deal with them DAILY.

  Part of the problem stems from family-of-origin and social environment. As Orna Ross notes above, women may have been conditioned to believe their work "should" be unpaid. Part stems from working in creative fields my entire adult life.

  Some parts of this, too, come from doing major projects where the payoff comes long after the completion of the work. Example: four years writing a book; another year or two waiting for the royalties to begin.

  All this seriously breaks the connection between work and payment to the extent that my ability to pay the bills (and I am responsible for the household) seems almost random and out of my control.

  Right now I have some freelance work that will be paying more regularly. I'm struggling with how to structure the payment plan. It's not like I haven't done this before. Each time, it feels new, in part because each time I'm asked to do a different type of work. I think I've got something devised that I can live with. Now I need to write an e-mail and hit "send" and see how the client reacts. Scary.

  • Thanks Deborah, interesting to hear both you and Orna bring in the female perspective, I hadn't considered it from that angle.

    And you're absolutely right about the connection between work and payment. The long (and unreliable) feedback loop + the subjective element in valuation means it's really hard to identify a relationship between the time and effort we put in and the results that come out.

    Good luck with the client situation. :-)

    • Thanks for the good luck wishes! I do this stuff and think, "WHY do I have to go through this process again? I did it before." Of course, I do come up with better solutions each time. Creative process in action, indeed, for better or worse.

      Interesting book that I have read part of (haven't had the fortitude for the whole thing yet) is Micki McGee's Self-Help, Inc.: Makeover Culture in American Life. It's talking about our constant need to "improve" our "selves." Some of the bits I've flagged are too long to quote here. But here's a snippet: "In place of the traditional notion of the self-made man--a construct that is gendered in its basic formation, patriarchal in its assumptions of how individuals come into being, and self-congratulatory in its tone--the belabored self presents itself as overworked both as the subject and as the object of its own efforts at self-improvement." (p. 16)

      (Definition of "belabored self" comes on previous pages, and has to do with the "self" as a site of "effort and exertion, of evaluation and management, of invention and reinvention," i.e., "belabored."

      Uh, no wonder I'm tired. Creating, earning, and fixing myself all the time. While single-parenting.

      • Yep, creativity is an iterative process. ;-)

        Creating, earning, and fixing myself all the time. While single-parenting.

        Double-parenting is tiring enough, anyone who does the single variety should get a medal!

    • I hadn't thought about that feedback loop thing. I think you've hit on something very important with that, Deborah.

      And, yes, the female thing is definitely very important.

• I've actually just been discussing related issues with someone - whether or not writing (as literature) is or can be a career. This is also something I've been thinking about myself.

  Here's something I wrote on the subject three years back:

  http://sleeping-butterfly.blogspot.com/2008/10/useful-parasites-by-quentin-s-crisp.html

  Just today, as I was going about my business, shopping at Sainsbury's and so on, I was thinking to myself, "Since the world could end at any moment, and a 'career' is basically just a way of avoiding thinking about this fact, if I take myself seriously as a writer, I should really be prepared to end up homeless. In fact, if I take myself seriously as a writer, I should stop writing, as the act of writing suggests that I have assumed that I am worthy and have something worth saying rather than acknowledging that the world could end at any moment. Therefore, I should really just stop writing completely. No serious writer can really do anything else. To actually write is to be caught up in a bourgeois personality cult. I must cease from all creative activity immediately, tie myself to a stake, and let the ants of moral necessity feast upon my bourgeois ego until nothing is left."

  At this point, I began to wonder if there was some way I could possibly square making a comfortable living, and (or at least) continuing to write, with being a serious writer.

  Is there?

  I'm not sure.

  • I try not to think of myself as a 'serious writer'. But I can't help writing... and neither can you. ;-)

    I began to wonder if there was some way I could possibly square making a comfortable living, and (or at least) continuing to write, with being a serious writer.

    Is there?

    Well, it's never been easy, and it still isn't. But I think there are at least more options these days. I think you saw my piece on How I became a professional writer (without signing a book contract).

    And your terrific work over at Chomu Press is another example that may not have been possible a few years ago...

• By the way, I think I'd say I relate to all the reasons except the last one.

  Generally, the fact that people understand so strongly and feel so passionately about the idea of 'selling out' with regard to the arts indicates that people feel there is something sacred about creativity. In which case, I wish this would translate a little more into a desire to nurture creativity rather than crucify it. But I do understand very much why people are wary of treating art of any kind as just another career.

• I can't pick just one of the seven....sad to say they are all me!

  • An honest response! :-)

• A really good blog entry and Mark and challenging for me.

  I have in the past avoided money at my peril, but impending fatherhood is changing all that. Money, the gathering and spending of it can be creative too. Saving also can be creative.

  Somewhere a long the way we decided that things to do with numbers, dollars, science etc was not creative and because we choose to define ourselves by our creativity we avoid those things. Well that's my story anyway.

  In truth the whole of life and everything in it is creative don't you think?

  Geoff
  Blogging and Commenting in seven sentences

  • Ah yes, parenthood is a great way of concentrating the mind. :-)

    In truth the whole of life and everything in it is creative don’t you think?

    Funny you should ask that in relation to numbers/money. I've just finished reading The Ascent of Money - a Financial History of the World by Niall Ferguson. He tells some riveting stories but it wasn't just that that held my attention - it gradually dawned on me that the history of finance is a history of innovation - the invention of bonds, stocks, insurance etc. Now, clearly these things are not an unmixed blessing but it did give me an appreciation for the inventiveness of people who came up with things I find it hard to get my head around.